Reimagining Justice

In today’s episode no. 30 you are in for a treat to hear from Hallie Jay Pope, founder and director of the Graphic Advocacy Project “GAP”, a non-profit that uses visual communication tools---like comics, graphic design, and animation---to explain legal concepts and advance social justice. Hallie works with advocates and communities across the United States to create visual legal resources that engage, inform, and mobilize. Hallie is a delightful and creative person and very clear about her mission and how to achieve it, by drawing on her skills as an artist and designer, and lawyer. In this episode she shares how she became a legal cartoonist, how the GAP came about and the projects she’s worked on over the last 3 years. Hallie has strong views about why legal information is so hard to understand and discusses the biggest advantage of her law degree. We talked about naked characterisations of people - you’ll just have to listen to make sense of that and towards the end of the interview, Hallie defines legal i

In today’s episode no. 29 I had the pleasure of speaking with Carolyn Devries, CEO and founder of Australia’s first non profit law firm New Way Lawyers for today’s episode. When Carolyn experienced a disconnect between how law is practised and what she learned in law school, and wanted to find a way to express her core values through her work, she developed the idea of and founded new way lawyers 10 years ago. Carolyn has strong views and advocates at every opportunity as to why legal services that involve strong emotions for the clients, such as family law and estate law, should be delivered through a non profit model. She sees family law as a community service with strong public policy implications, and I tend to agree. Provision of legal services, or someone’s inability to access legal services can lead to a greater demand on other social services. Carolyn shared her personal story about the early days of new way law, the fun and not so fun parts, especially being challenged by other members of the profess

In today’s episode no. 28, I interview John Mayer, Executive Director of the Centre for Computer Assisted Learning Instruction (CALI) since 1994. CALI is a non-profit consortium of 198 US law schools that conducts applied research in computer-mediated legal education and publishes over 1000 tutorials in 40 different legal subject areas for law schools, law firms and others interested in learning about the law. CALI also publishes Creative Commons law books at elangdell.cali.org and is the developer of A2J Author which is used by courts, legal aid and law schools to automate legal processes and court forms for self representing litigants. John explains what it was that led to the initial development of open source document assembly software, A2J Author around 20 years ago now and how it is improving processes for courts, self-represented litigtans and lawyers. John sees almost unlimited potential in making it easier to compile information for courts but also appreciates the challenges that legal assistance org

In today’s episode no. 27, I interview Meera Klemola, legal designer extraordinaire. We discuss what Meera appreciates about design - how it can break down silos between lawyers and other professionals, allow for empathy, change mindsets and de-risk solutions. I asked her the benefits and limitations of design thinking and how it compares to systems thinking. Meera has carefully considered all these issues through her work and postgraduate study into teaching design to non-designers, in particular lawyers. We also covered the essential ingredients of a successful design thinking project and how to evaluate effectiveness, something I’m always interested in. If you want to hear me being put on the spot with a creativity exercise definitely tune in. You might also be surprised about Meera’s views on whether anyone can practise legal design and whether it should be taught in law schools. Meera’s philosophy is to enable courageous change with design and technology. As a trusted advisor to global brands and top tie

In today’s episode no. 26 I speak with Rohan Pavuluri, co-founder and CEO of Upsolve, a non-profit that helps low-income families file bankruptcy for free, using an online web app. In the last 12 months, Upsolve has relieved over $100 million in debt and is the largest not for profit provider of bankruptcy in the US. In this episode we discuss the issues that Rohan and his co-founder Jonathan Petts wanted to address in starting Upsolve, how the online platform actually works and who it is most suitable for. We cover the most common types of events that lead people into bankruptcy and why people should file but find it difficult to do so. While Rohan studied statistics at university he explains where his personal interest in justice and policy comes from. He also shares some of his personal difficulties with this venture, how he dealt with doubt in the early days and the ongoing challenges - and also what he’s most proud of. And for justice entrepreneurs starting out with a new venture, Rohan had some unexpect

In today’s episode no. 25, Edward Santow, Australia’s Human Rights Commissioner speaks to Reimagining Justice about one of many projects he is responsible for, namely the Commission’s Human Rights and Technology project. Whether you know a little or a lot about human rights or artificial intelligence, you will gain something from listening to our conversation about the most extensive consultation into AI and Human Rights anywhere in the world. Ed explains exactly what human rights are and why they should be protected, how technology is both enhancing and detracting from human rights and the best approach to take in regulating emerging technology in the future. We talked about protecting the rights of the most marginalized people, automated decision making and how to combat bias and something I found particularly fascinating, the tension between the universality of human rights, ubiquitous technology and how differing cultural contexts and historical experiences are shaping the principles that will guide both

In today’s episode no. 24 Karen Finch, CEO of Legally Yours explains the reasons people don’t engage with lawyers and which suggested an online platform connecting clients with lawyers would be a valuable idea. Karen explains how the connections are made through the platform and what is critical to a successful relationship between lawyer and client. She shared the biggest challenge she’s faced in promoting the platform and what is unique about it, including what she’s learnt and applied from dating sites and who she’s turned away. We talked about the importance of people finding the right legal help at the right time and how beneficial it would be to the consumer legal market, for different stakeholders to collaborate on cross-referrals for different client groups and legal issues. We briefly discussed the Australian Legal Technology Association and women in tech. I really loved Karen’s definition of legal innovation, probably because I could relate so much to what she said. You should listen to this episode

In today’s episode no. 23, Stacy Butler, Director, of Innovation for Justice at the University of Arizona Law speaks about the courses she coordinates and teaches, how they came about, what they teach including how they incorporate design thinking methodologies, but most importantly what they add to systems reform in Arizona and especially their local community. I was amazed to hear about the collaboration both within the courses themselves, with students from a broad range of disciplines, and collaboration across universities, which provides such a powerful voice. Stacy shared about the importance of supportive leadership in running new initiatives like her courses and where she thinks innovation will make the most difference in the delivery of legal services in the next five years. She commented a few times that I asked her questions no-one had asked her before, not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing… You will gain a lot from this episode if you are establishing or running an innovative university

In today’s episode no. 22, I had the great pleasure of speaking with Katie who is currently the Deputy commissioner of IBAC in Victoria and who in 2015 as then President of the Law Institute of Victoria wrote a paper “Disruption, Innovation and Change”. Her reasons for doing that research were quite unexpected, as was the connection she draws between tech, atj and her happy place the queen Victoria market! You will gain a lot from this episode if you are a legal tech start up or technology company looking to partner with justice organisations or working in an organisation and responsible for implementing new projects. Katie shares her definition of failure and the importance of leadership. We had a wide ranging discussion covering why solutions can’t be imported wholesale from other jurisdictions, tips for responding to people and organizations at different stages of their innovation journeys, how incorporated legal practices are relevant to innovation, challenges of implementing new technology in a governmen

In Episode no. 21 I interview the “father of incubators” Fred Rooney. Fred generously shares his vast experience in establishing incubators in the US and other places around the world. From one program with nine students established around 15 years ago in New York, there are now over 70 programs worldwide training law graduates in areas of law that enable them to serve their local communities, as well as how to run a viable practice. Incubators are unique training programs supported by a law school or law association as a way of addressing the issue of oversupply of law graduates and the growing levels of unmet legal needs. And through specific training in how to use legal skills to serve those who can’t afford typical legal fees, incubators are fulfilling the human need in lawyers who want to help those less fortunate. This episode will be of special interest to legal educators wanting to ensure their graduate lawyers are ready for practice and to provide legal services to low and middle-income communities,

In this episode no. 19 I interview Mark Swivel and Fiona Spencer of Barefoot Law. Mark is the founder and principal, and Fiona an associate at Barefoot Law which is a low cost community legal clinic based in the Northern Rivers of New South Wales. Barefoot Law is taking a unique approach to providing legal advice to its local community in a way that shouldn’t be a surprising – by charging extremely affordable fees. You might be surprised just how affordable! Keep listening to find out how the cover the unavoidable costs of running a law firm. Mark explains what motivated him to start Barefoot Law, the kinds of advice they provide, how and where they deliver it. We talk about the disconnect between the profession and everyday people’s understanding of the law and what’s needed. Mark also shares some thought- provoking views about whether lawyers can be entrepreneurs. Mark and Fiona were very open in sharing the somewhat unexpected and personal challenges they’ve faced in running a law firm that honours its cli

In this episode no. 18 I interview the first technology provider on the podcast! Dominique Simsion is Asia-Pacific Director of Consulting and Solutions at Neota Logic - the no code AI platform that enables the creation of intelligent web applications. Dominique explains what no-code document automation and expert systems are, the origins and evolution of the LawApps course which is a university course teaching project management and other skills that haven’t traditionally been part of a law degree. She was very open about the challenges for community legal centres and the potential benefits to Neota Logic in providing the course and positive about the outcomes for students. We covered about the challenge of sustainability for IT projects, how to turn talk into action including her tips for incorporating innovation across a legal practice and Dominique had some particularly interesting views on innovation by press release and hackathons. This episode will be of interest to lawyers wanting to understand how a n

In this episode no. 17 I was again fortunate to interview 2 people who’ve been part of a team working on an online tool to make it easier, quicker and cheaper for people to sort out claims arising from motor vehicle accidents. One of the guests is an expert in personal injuries law having represented people in some high profile and serious claims of sexual misconduct etc. and the other has a PhD in physics and before her current role was a post doc research fellow with the institute for bioengineering and nanotechnology. Jodie Willey joined Shine Lawyers as a 16 year old articled clerk, keen to work with people to make a difference. For almost 25 years at Shine, Jodie has helped to shine a light on injustice and helped many thousands of clients and now, drawing on her blend of experience, Jodie is now focussed on innovation and how technology can transform the delivery of services in the legal sector. Ann Bui joined Shine last year to work on the development of Claimify. Prior to this, Ann was a computational

In this episode no. 16 I interview Miguel Willis, a 2017 graduate from Seattle University School of Law and currently the inaugural Presidential Innovation Fellow at Law School Admission Council, where he oversees the Access to Justice Tech Fellows Program which is a program that pairs law students with legal services organizations to develop projects that support the use of technology, data, and design-thinking to bridge the justice gap in America. Miguel is committed to leveraging his law degree in a non-traditional way to solve seemingly intractable problems and in this episode you will hear examples of how he does just that. Miguel shares with me the personal reasons that led him to set up this innovative program, and how he is aiming to fill a gap in traditional legal education. We cover how he went about doing so, the types of organisations involved and the interesting projects they work on and how it leads to opportunities for students. We also cover how, funnily enough, Miguel ended up being a fellow

In this episode no. 15, I speak with namely Andrew Wight and Kath Manby of Adieu Legal, two people doing amazing work to make law better for people with family law disputes. Andrew is an entrepreneur and multi-award-winning designer; CEO and co-founder of Adieu Legal, a Legal Tech start-up focused on creating better ways for humans to resolve conflict. Kath is a family lawyer with a single-minded passion for access-to-justice and as Legal Principal at Adieu Legal, exploring new ways to use technology to connect more people with good legal advice and keep them out of court. Do you know what actually stops people from seeking legal advice? You might be surprised. We explore issues with Australia’s family law system and how disputes and the growing epidemic of domestic violence could be reduced through ways other than court orders and the role of Adieu Legal’s sophisticated and very useful solution in all of this. If you are interested in how human centred design helps identify people’s actual problems and leads

In this episode no. 14, I speak with Joanna Mendoza, a member of the California State Bar Board of Trustees since 2013, and currently a member of the Task Force on Access Through Innovation of Legal Services. Joanna and I discussed the recommendations voted upon by the Task Force on 28 June and where to from here. She shared why people from disciplines other than law need to be on a body that regulates lawyers, and where the risks should lie in the provision of legal services. We also talked about the wild card standing between the recommendations and their official implementation. You will be interested in this interview if you want to understand the relationship between professional legal regulation and access to legal services, the influence of places like Silicon Valley on challenging the lawyers’ monopoly, and an emerging thread of the podcast, the importance of monitoring the effectiveness of any solution. If you teach, study or enforce ethical rules, or have an idea that could potentially scale legal a

In this episode no. 13, I interview Tim Baran, Law Help NY manager at Pro Bono net.  Tim works with communities across the legal services, non-profit, and technology sectors to build solutions to help close the justice gap and expand access to legal help for low-income and vulnerable people. 
I found my conversation with Tim very refreshing. It seems to me that Tim is an open minded realist He made many great points especially about how we need a high level of collaboration to solve the access to justice crisis. You will want to listen to this episode if you are interested in knowing how 1 organisation is helping many other organisations to use tech to deliver legal information and connect people to lawyers, about sustainability of projects and measuring outcomes, and why we need to break down silos between different players in this space. 
This interview will particularly appeal to you if you are a public service provider of legal resources, a community lawyer looking to incorporate digital projects, or if y

In this episode no. 12, I interview lawyer and founder of Barefoot Law in Uganda, Gerald Abila. Founded in 2013, Barefoot Law is a non-profit organization using digital technology in innovative ways to empower people to develop legal solutions for their justice needs. We covered so much in this interview including the specific challenges in sub-Saharan Africa, the type of tech that Barefoot Law uses most, how they reached the most vulnerable members of the community when tech couldn’t, and Gerald's views for the future including what he says is the ultimate law. Gerald shares how he started Barefoot Law when he was in law school and his journey establishing an organisation with no resources.  We also cover more personal reflections on the importance of values and what motivates him. You will want to listen to this episode if you are interested in understanding the connection between AI and social good, law and maths, how to lead an organisation with very few resources and the importance of tailoring your solu

In this episode no. 11, I interview lawyer and academic Caitlin "Cat" Moon; the Director of Innovation Design for the Program in Law and Innovation (PoLI) at Vanderbilt Law School and Director of the PoLI Institute which provides training in legal innovation to practicing lawyers and legal professionals. I could relate to the fact that Cat’s experience spans academia, innovation, private practice and public service law. The expansiveness of her work means she can see synergies where others don’t and add value across many areas. You will want to listen to this episode if you are interested in knowing about human centred design, essential factors for positive change, the importance of mindsets, and some of the unexpected benefits of legal innovation. This interview will appeal to a broad range of listeners and especially be of interest to you if you are a legal educator or law student, legal designer, chief innovation officer or tasked with bringing different programs or mindsets to your organisation. Links: PO